Forum: empire-en
Board: [584] Players ask Players
Topic: [77667] Any correlation between waves & attacking tools ?
[-77667]
Arko9699 [None]
:: Sept. 28, 2012, 4:45 a.m.
Hi friends [ & foes 8) ], I am curious ?( about the above !
For example, does it work better, if Wave 1 tries to demolish moat & gate tools, followed by Wave 2 taking on walls & ranged tools ? Or, whatever way you distribute your attack tools across waves, it has the same bearing ?
Thanks
For example, does it work better, if Wave 1 tries to demolish moat & gate tools, followed by Wave 2 taking on walls & ranged tools ? Or, whatever way you distribute your attack tools across waves, it has the same bearing ?
Thanks
[1395205]
Conqueror9 [None]
:: Sept. 28, 2012, 5:34 a.m.
i think there is no waves...
just 1 army ...total add up
if there is reports for waves...it means 2 wave u get 2 report
but there is 1 wave...so , i think, it is just a add up only
just 1 army ...total add up
if there is reports for waves...it means 2 wave u get 2 report
but there is 1 wave...so , i think, it is just a add up only
[1395209]
xJadetsssx [None]
:: Sept. 28, 2012, 5:49 a.m.
Conqueror9 wrote: »i think there is no waves...
just 1 army ...total add up
if there is reports for waves...it means 2 wave u get 2 report
but there is 1 wave...so , i think, it is just a add up only
It makes no difference sending soldiers in one wave or another, except the amount of defender tools could be reduced for example, and if you attack with 4 waves you only get 1 report
[1395217]
J.I. Joe2 [None]
:: Sept. 28, 2012, 6:41 a.m.
Hi friends [ & foes 8) ], I am curious ?( about the above !
For example, does it work better, if Wave 1 tries to demolish moat & gate tools, followed by Wave 2 taking on walls & ranged tools ? Or, whatever way you distribute your attack tools across waves, it has the same bearing ?
Thanks
Hello Arko9699,
Much to most people not being aware of this, you're right when you say that the tools negate only per wave, per flank/mid.
For example, say a defender has the following setup on the left flank:
100 halberdiers
100 longbowmen
85% castle wall protection (one slot with stone-throwing +25%)
+50% defense to ranged defenders (two fire-arrow slots +25% each)
45% moat protection (with the +35% provided by Sharpened Stakes)
For you to entirely negate these bonuses is impossible, as your target has 3 defensive properties, and you're just allowed to counter two per wave.
You best bet is to start by annihilating most of the ranged defenders stats in the first wave with a lot of mantlets or iron mantlets, and also eliminating your target's best defense bonus (castle wall bonus of 85%) with 9 Ladders or 6 Siege Towers.
After having lost a lot of attackers in the first wave, I personnally would try to go for the moat and castle wall bonus in the second wave. Although, your opponent is going to have a full +50% defense to it's ranged defenders.
3rd wave, I'd do again like in the first wave, trying to eliminate as many (if not all the remaining) ranged defenders. Chances are you've won by now.
4th wave, I'd go again with the 2nd wave tools, eliminating the moat and castle wall bonuses. Victory SHOULD be yours.
Many people will tell you to use the Armorer's ruby tools in offense as well. What I will personnally tell you is that the normal ruby tools already negate all your enemy's defensive bonuses just as well as the Armorer's ruby tools. Since you're only limited to two tool slots (of 30 tools total per wave), there is no reason for you not to overcome your opponent's defensive tools even if he is using Armorer ruby tools and you are using normal ruby tools.
Hope this helps you understand the semantics a bit better.
[1395241]
Arko9699 [None]
:: Sept. 28, 2012, 7:57 a.m.
J.I. Joe. awesome reply !!!
I was hoping that having different seize tools, multiple slots to put them in & waves during attacks, will have some strategic bearing on the outcome. Thanks for confirming
I was hoping that having different seize tools, multiple slots to put them in & waves during attacks, will have some strategic bearing on the outcome. Thanks for confirming
[1408215]
dragon21 (US1) [None]
:: Oct. 23, 2012, 9:24 p.m.
Hey J.I. Joe...
thanks for a great explanation of waves and tactics.
I'd be curious therefore for one final clarification for me.
When you send enemies with siege tools, does the percentage bonus/reduction to the enemies walls get applied literally, or by percentage?
The clearest way I can ask this is with an example:
If the defender's wall is at 40% + say, a stone defense: +25= total +65%.
Wanting to eliminate this completely, do I...
A) send 10 Ladders = 100%, = 100% of the 65% is gone.
Or can I get the same results with just sending 6-7 ladders? = 60-70%, thus matching the percentage on the wall 1:1.
I have assumed that the answer is "B"... BUT on some RBC battles, when I've reduced the wall to say, 40% and just sent 4 ladders (assuming the defense are now at 0%), I have occasionally gotten fewer losses in the same set-ups by sending 6,7 or 8, ladders, even though, if you assume "B" is correct, this would be a waste (overage)...
So, is it "A" or "B" that is correct when applying siege to counter wall defense?
Thanks.
thanks for a great explanation of waves and tactics.
I'd be curious therefore for one final clarification for me.
When you send enemies with siege tools, does the percentage bonus/reduction to the enemies walls get applied literally, or by percentage?
The clearest way I can ask this is with an example:
If the defender's wall is at 40% + say, a stone defense: +25= total +65%.
Wanting to eliminate this completely, do I...
A) send 10 Ladders = 100%, = 100% of the 65% is gone.
Or can I get the same results with just sending 6-7 ladders? = 60-70%, thus matching the percentage on the wall 1:1.I have assumed that the answer is "B"... BUT on some RBC battles, when I've reduced the wall to say, 40% and just sent 4 ladders (assuming the defense are now at 0%), I have occasionally gotten fewer losses in the same set-ups by sending 6,7 or 8, ladders, even though, if you assume "B" is correct, this would be a waste (overage)...
So, is it "A" or "B" that is correct when applying siege to counter wall defense?
Thanks.
[1408265]
Conqueror9 [None]
:: Oct. 23, 2012, 10:45 p.m.
For me
i usually send 2 ladder only.....< unless some thing is quite difference >
bring enemy wall and gate down to normal
gate around 20-25% , wall around 20-25%
i use 2 ladder and answer B use 6 ladder
i save 4 ladder
why i do that
i read the RBC spreadsheet
it seems the writer do not send sufficient tools to kill all defender's tools, he always lower it below 25%, so i believe it may be a way to save some tools for other targets
i test some, it seems writer is correct
i usually send 2 ladder only.....< unless some thing is quite difference >
bring enemy wall and gate down to normal
gate around 20-25% , wall around 20-25%
i use 2 ladder and answer B use 6 ladder
i save 4 ladder
why i do that
i read the RBC spreadsheet
it seems the writer do not send sufficient tools to kill all defender's tools, he always lower it below 25%, so i believe it may be a way to save some tools for other targets
i test some, it seems writer is correct
[1408282]
xJadetsssx [None]
:: Oct. 23, 2012, 11:04 p.m.
Hey J.I. Joe...
thanks for a great explanation of waves and tactics.
I'd be curious therefore for one final clarification for me.
When you send enemies with siege tools, does the percentage bonus/reduction to the enemies walls get applied literally, or by percentage?
The clearest way I can ask this is with an example:
If the defender's wall is at 40% + say, a stone defense: +25= total +65%.
Wanting to eliminate this completely, do I...
A) send 10 Ladders = 100%, = 100% of the 65% is gone.
I have assumed that the answer is "B"... BUT on some RBC battles, when I've reduced the wall to say, 40% and just sent 4 ladders (assuming the defense are now at 0%), I have occasionally gotten fewer losses in the same set-ups by sending 6,7 or 8, ladders, even though, if you assume "B" is correct, this would be a waste (overage)...
So, is it "A" or "B" that is correct when applying siege to counter wall defense?
Thanks.
If the castle have 45% of wall bonus and you use 5 ladders, the bonus for the defender will be 0%, because it is 45% - 50% = 0%, so the correct answer is B, but even if you send 10 ladders you will get the same result, but you will waste them as they only had 65% of bonus and not 100%..
[1408294]
Eric768 (US1) [US1]
:: Oct. 23, 2012, 11:18 p.m.
xJadetsssx wrote: »If the castle have 45% of wall bonus and you use 5 ladders, the bonus for the defender will be 0%, because it is 45% - 50% = 0%, so the correct answer is B, but even if you send 10 ladders you will get the same result, but you will waste them as they only had 65% of bonus and not 100%..
But in having more tools, and therefore overlapping their bonus, would you not gain a bonus for the tools sent? In other words, if you have 85% wall protection, and I send 10 belfires (20% each) wouldn't I gain a 115% bonus? Or is it that all you can only cancel their defense and not gain a bonus with the tools? It doesn't sound like that makes sense to me, but whatever the answer is, I am eager to hear.
[1408297]
xJadetsssx [None]
:: Oct. 23, 2012, 11:23 p.m.
But in having more tools, and therefore overlapping their bonus, would you not gain a bonus for the tools sent? In other words, if you have 85% wall protection, and I send 10 belfires (20% each) wouldn't I gain a 115% bonus? Or is it that all you can only cancel their defense and not gain a bonus with the tools? It doesn't sound like that makes sense to me, but whatever the answer is, I am eager to hear.
No, that doesn't happen, if you they have 50% of wall protection and you use 20 belfry, the bonus for the defender will be 0%, and you will not win any bonus, even if you had 150% more of power than needed, that applies to the Moat, Gate and wall tools, with the mantlets that doesn't apply, if the opponent have 1 flaming arrows and you use 20 wooden mantlets that means
The defender wins 25% of ranged bonus, and you reduce 100% that means the ranged defenders will fight at 25% of power.
[1408303]
Eric768 (US1) [US1]
:: Oct. 23, 2012, 11:39 p.m.
xJadetsssx wrote: »No, that doesn't happen, if you they have 50% of wall protection and you use 20 belfry, the bonus for the defender will be 0%, and you will not win any bonus, even if you had 150% more of power than needed, that applies to the Moat, Gate and wall tools, with the mantlets that doesn't apply, if the opponent have 1 flaming arrows and you use 20 wooden mantlets that means
The defender wins 25% of ranged bonus, and you reduce 100% that means the ranged defenders will fight at 25% of power.
Why is that? I mean, if the defender can gain a bonus in defending, why can't the attacker when attacking? Your response about ranged percent makes complete sense, thanks for that, I was searching for that as well. But why wouldn't the attacker gain a bonus when attacking?
I will try and dig up a report from a fellow alliance member and get an example. I would like to find the explanation, wether I am wrong or you are right, just want the answer
[1408311]
xJadetsssx [None]
:: Oct. 24, 2012, 12:15 a.m.
Why is that? I mean, if the defender can gain a bonus in defending, why can't the attacker when attacking? Your response about ranged percent makes complete sense, thanks for that, I was searching for that as well. But why wouldn't the attacker gain a bonus when attacking?
I will try and dig up a report from a fellow alliance member and get an example. I would like to find the explanation, wether I am wrong or you are right, just want the answer
When it is wall, gate and moat, you will not win any bonuses (when you are the attacker) even if you countered all the defender bonuses.
[1408315]
Eric768 (US1) [US1]
:: Oct. 24, 2012, 12:17 a.m.
xJadetsssx wrote: »When it is wall, gate and moat, you will not win any bonuses (when you are the attacker) even if you countered all the defender bonuses.
Alright. So if they have 60% wall defense, and I take it, they gain NO bonus what so ever, even if I overlap with over 150%. Yet if the attacker has 100 coming in the sides (50/50 troops) and those are heavies, not vets, and the defender has 150 defending (50/50 split) also heavies, not vets, the attacker will most likley lose?
[1408321]
J.I. Joe2 [None]
:: Oct. 24, 2012, 12:22 a.m.
Why is that? I mean, if the defender can gain a bonus in defending, why can't the attacker when attacking? Your response about ranged percent makes complete sense, thanks for that, I was searching for that as well. But why wouldn't the attacker gain a bonus when attacking?
I will try and dig up a report from a fellow alliance member and get an example. I would like to find the explanation, wether I am wrong or you are right, just want the answer
The attacker's tools (other than the mantlets/iron mantlets/shields) are only usefull to negate the defender's defensive bonuses. They do not provide any bonus to the attacker other than ensuring the defender won't be having those bonuses.
[1408325]
Eric768 (US1) [US1]
:: Oct. 24, 2012, 12:29 a.m.
The attacker's tools (other than the mantlets/iron mantlets/shields) are only usefull to negate the defender's defensive bonuses. They do not provide any bonus to the attacker other than ensuring the defender won't be having those bonuses.
I suspect this is true, I just find it odd how sometimes you can overpower someone with tools when on the offense, and you can completely destroy those defends, without using manlets, iron manlet and shields.
As Jade would say, empire logic...
[1408326]
xJadetsssx [None]
:: Oct. 24, 2012, 12:31 a.m.
That is why in high levels the mantlets gets so important, as they can leave ranged defenders with no power at all, something that other tools can't do.
[1408327]
Eric768 (US1) [US1]
:: Oct. 24, 2012, 12:33 a.m.
xJadetsssx wrote: »That is why in high levels the mantlets gets so important, as they can leave ranged defenders with no power at all, something that other tools can't do.
Thank you for clearing this up, the info will be put to good use.
Eric768
[1408630]
dragon21 (US1) [None]
:: Oct. 24, 2012, 4:19 p.m.
OK. this is what I expected the answer to be... BUT... I do have a report on an RBC... Level 24:1 to go.
On this, I send my usual 1st wave of just 1 maceman on the flanks to knock out the RBC's tools. This means the second wave is just facing a 40% wall...
But here I found a difference:
In one attack I sent to the right flank: 13 2handed + 13 cross with 4 Ladders. (max defense bonus should be 0%).
And I lost (-3,-3) 3 of each.
BUT when I sent 13+13 with ^6^ Ladders... well...
I only lost (-2,-2) of each!
So, it might seem that in this case, 6 ladders did effectively reduce the defense, as opposed to 4 ladders.
And unless I'm mistaken, I'm fairly certain the walls are only 40% here, and not 60%... so, how is this explained?
(also, in a few other situations, I've found 5-6 ladders can offer a slightly better result over 4 ladders when facing a 40% wall... not often... just sometimes...)
Also, I can replicate this on LV23:5 to go. Using 5-6 ladders vs a 40% wall gives less losses than using 4 ladders. It would appear that in these cases, it shows that ladders eliminate a percentage of the wall (i.e. 5 ladders removes 50% of 40% wal), and do not work as a straight linear correlation (i.e. 4 ladders removes 100% of 40% wall).
Thanks.
On this, I send my usual 1st wave of just 1 maceman on the flanks to knock out the RBC's tools. This means the second wave is just facing a 40% wall...
But here I found a difference:
In one attack I sent to the right flank: 13 2handed + 13 cross with 4 Ladders. (max defense bonus should be 0%).
And I lost (-3,-3) 3 of each.
BUT when I sent 13+13 with ^6^ Ladders... well...
I only lost (-2,-2) of each!
So, it might seem that in this case, 6 ladders did effectively reduce the defense, as opposed to 4 ladders.
And unless I'm mistaken, I'm fairly certain the walls are only 40% here, and not 60%... so, how is this explained?
(also, in a few other situations, I've found 5-6 ladders can offer a slightly better result over 4 ladders when facing a 40% wall... not often... just sometimes...)
Also, I can replicate this on LV23:5 to go. Using 5-6 ladders vs a 40% wall gives less losses than using 4 ladders. It would appear that in these cases, it shows that ladders eliminate a percentage of the wall (i.e. 5 ladders removes 50% of 40% wal), and do not work as a straight linear correlation (i.e. 4 ladders removes 100% of 40% wall).
Thanks.
[1408855]
xJadetsssx [None]
:: Oct. 24, 2012, 9:53 p.m.
There are some NPC's with some tools that even if you use a martyr in the first wave they will still have tools in the second wave.
[1408886]
dragon21 (US1) [None]
:: Oct. 24, 2012, 11:28 p.m.
Jade, I know that you can see that in the reports, and until glaciers, they don't really set them past wave one for a while, as far as I can tell up to level 25.
But again, I tried this, and I can verify, once getting a wall to 40%, in a map in desert I tried 2 settings on two flanks of map with an exact set up twice: Desert 38:1 to go.
I send 40heavy cross on left and right flanks. Once with 4 ladders vs 40% wall. and once with 8 ladders per side vs same 40% wall.
With 4 Ladders: 40x vs 26s I got (-9) and 40x vs 29s I get (-11).
With 8 Ladders: 40x vs 26s I got (-7) and 40x vs 29s I get (-8)).
Got it get it? So, at higher levels, the little advantages of extra ladders start to make a difference, but probably up until level 20-25 RBCs, you won't make a huge improvement on 2-3 ladders vs 10 ladders, because you will always loose some minimum players. Even if you sent 100% mantlets vs arrows, sometimes you lose a guy.
So. Yon't really ever need over 3-4 ladders until after level 20+ because you won't see much difference. But later, yes.
And fill up all 10 spots on ladders to get the full bonus. +100%.
Which probably starts to make a difference a lot in levels above 35-40+.
At least, thats my experience so far...
Also, in some experiences, it doesn't matter if I use 10 ladders or 4, I still lose the same troops. like on the flanks of map: 22, 1 to go.
But again, I tried this, and I can verify, once getting a wall to 40%, in a map in desert I tried 2 settings on two flanks of map with an exact set up twice: Desert 38:1 to go.
I send 40heavy cross on left and right flanks. Once with 4 ladders vs 40% wall. and once with 8 ladders per side vs same 40% wall.
With 4 Ladders: 40x vs 26s I got (-9) and 40x vs 29s I get (-11).
With 8 Ladders: 40x vs 26s I got (-7) and 40x vs 29s I get (-8)).
Got it get it? So, at higher levels, the little advantages of extra ladders start to make a difference, but probably up until level 20-25 RBCs, you won't make a huge improvement on 2-3 ladders vs 10 ladders, because you will always loose some minimum players. Even if you sent 100% mantlets vs arrows, sometimes you lose a guy.
So. Yon't really ever need over 3-4 ladders until after level 20+ because you won't see much difference. But later, yes.
And fill up all 10 spots on ladders to get the full bonus. +100%.
Which probably starts to make a difference a lot in levels above 35-40+.
At least, thats my experience so far...
Also, in some experiences, it doesn't matter if I use 10 ladders or 4, I still lose the same troops. like on the flanks of map: 22, 1 to go.