Forum: empire-en
Board: [589] Strategy & Tactics Discussion
Topic: [305130] How You Can Beat A Flank, Or How To Know If You Can Hold It
[-305130]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 5, 2016, 11:26 p.m.
Ok I am aware for lv70's that due to the new 5/6 waves defending is near pointless (With some exceptions), so this is for the lower levels on a guide to attacking/defending a flank.
For newbies: The setup the game gives you at the start is the worst, the standard defense setup for good players is 0-0-100 or 100-0-0 with a 75-25 melee to ranged troop ratio, as that usually means the enemy can hold a flank meaning the attacker will not get a 30% courtyard bonus, I wont go into more detail but if you don't know what I mean or how standard setup works comment below and I will say in more detail. This guide is to show how it works.
Ok, lets start by looking at this guys defense (lv50-69), I spyed on soooo many of the people in the top pp/honor ranks and there setups were shocking, holding the center, center and flank, non ruby tools, I could attack any of them and they would get no support from their alliance most likely, but in the end I found a guy with a decent setup. And yes his towers were all lv4 as they should be. I did not use my own setup as an example as I am in the middle of upgrading my towers, which would make the end result unfair.
As for my commander I have the druid Guards set each piece teched to +8 which to be honest any decent player should have at this point. Note how his cast is stronger then my commander, The net percentages at the top have already used both of our cast/comm stats and that is the end result. That means you can ignore anything about the cast/comm stats from now on apart from MY ranged/melee strength as that affects my units in the future not his.
Also he was using 1 mach 2 slits and 1 fire moat (best possible)
Ok so as you can see at the top, He has a net wall protection of 147% and a net moat protection of 143% and 313% Ranged strength and 175% melee strength.
Part 1: Neutralizing the ranged power
With the 313% ranged strength, to reduce the strength to 0 you would need:
62.6 Wood Mantlets (63)
31.3 Cast Iron Mantlets (31)
20.8666666667 Shield Walls (21)
Now We do not need to factor in the moat protection, As the moat protection is multiplied by the ranged strength, but we can make that 0 with 21 shield walls.
So If I use 21 shield walls, I have reduced his ranged strength completely.
Part 2: Finding the melee power.
So I have 9 slots now and he has 224 Sentinels. He also has a net wall protection of 147%, And a melee power bonus of 175%
He also has 143% moat protection, Altogether he has 465% melee strength.
But with the 9 tool slots I have left I will fill them with breaching towers, taking away all of his wall protection, so now he has 318% melee strength
Now 1 sentinel has 59 strength against ranged soldiers, 318% of that is 187.62 strength per Sentinel. Times that by how many there are (224)
Makes 42026.88 melee strength against ranged soldiers.
Now my commander however has a 58% ranged bonus, Say I used deathly horrors for my attack, there normal strength is 162 but58% of that is 93.96 giving my deathly horror a total strength of 255.96
I can use 52 horrors on each wave, and I have 4 waves.
The strength of 52 horrors for me is 13309.92
So if all my waves have 52 horrors, 21 shield walls and 9 breaching towers. I will be hitting him with 13309.92 strength per wave.
Times that by 4 since I have 4 waves makes 53239.68 strength all together, more then his strength, so I shall win his flank.
He will beat the first 3 waves, but I will beat him on the last wave, this is because by the last wave he only has 2097.12 strength left which means I only need 9 more horrors to finish him. I have 42 free slots for troops which I can fill with demon horrors!
Conclusion
So this guy can't hold his flank against me, but then i'm always running the risk that he will be online to defend and will switch his setup to all ranged soldiers and tools, hammering me. or he could do a full melee smash and I would have no chance.
Although my commander is weaker, I can beat him, but I would recommend never risking it
How do I know if I can beat/defend the flank?
Do all the steps I just did. Sometimes if you use all ranged troops you can beat it, but will be crushed if they are online.
If your getting attacked by foreigners in particular and have enough time, do all the calculations and see if you can maybe hold 2 flanks.
But other players are usually smarter.
When trying to work out if you can win when defending, make sure you factor in the players commander stats, not just your fully powered defense ones
Why you can't hold the flank at lv70?
As far as I know since the legendary levels update, players could unlock the 5th and 6th wave. Combined with flank gems, it is nearly impossible to hold to flank as the attacker has too many troops for you to withhold on the flank.
Philt123- "All you can do it try to pick a weakness in the attack and defend accordingly, using the defensive side of the HOL helps, but its impossible to give generic advice on how to defend, you have to tailor your defense to what you see coming at you. And you have to hope they made a mistake on the attack tooling, leaving a weakness you can exploit, or if hey got greedy with glory banners etc. Or don't have any flank or Front gems etc. But against a well balanced well tooled 6 wave attack, its pretty much impossible"
Note
If there is one thing to take away from what you just read, please let it be the realization of how important moat protection is, moat protection counts to all your troops and so is therefore in my opinion the thing you want to increase the most, we are all brought up thinking that your ranged/melee bonus is the most important. And at first it is, but as soon as you get a moat get a good cast with moat protection with it, why do you think you can buy ruby moat castle upgrades? The empire team also know the importance of it...
Use moat tools in your attacks it helps so much. If they cant take down your ranged strength totally, the moat will give strength to your ranged and melee troops/
Any questions please do not hesitate to comment below. If you think I made an error or anything which knowing me I did please tell me.
I understand this stuff will not be new to older players, especially ones in powerful alliances, this guide is more for less experienced people in the game. I was working on how to figure out exactly how many troops you will lose in an attack, but from what I can work out ggs has some hidden morale system which works on how many troops you send as well as the strength of them. I am also busy with school work so do not have a lot of time to make this kind of stuff. But will carry on trying to help the community whenever I can.
~Fexy
As for my commander I have the druid Guards set each piece teched to +8 which to be honest any decent player should have at this point. Note how his cast is stronger then my commander, The net percentages at the top have already used both of our cast/comm stats and that is the end result. That means you can ignore anything about the cast/comm stats from now on apart from MY ranged/melee strength as that affects my units in the future not his.
Also he was using 1 mach 2 slits and 1 fire moat (best possible)
Ok so as you can see at the top, He has a net wall protection of 147% and a net moat protection of 143% and 313% Ranged strength and 175% melee strength.
With the 313% ranged strength, to reduce the strength to 0 you would need:
62.6 Wood Mantlets (63)
31.3 Cast Iron Mantlets (31)
20.8666666667 Shield Walls (21)
Now We do not need to factor in the moat protection, As the moat protection is multiplied by the ranged strength, but we can make that 0 with 21 shield walls.
So If I use 21 shield walls, I have reduced his ranged strength completely.
Part 2: Finding the melee power.
So I have 9 slots now and he has 224 Sentinels. He also has a net wall protection of 147%, And a melee power bonus of 175%
He also has 143% moat protection, Altogether he has 465% melee strength.
But with the 9 tool slots I have left I will fill them with breaching towers, taking away all of his wall protection, so now he has 318% melee strength
Now 1 sentinel has 59 strength against ranged soldiers, 318% of that is 187.62 strength per Sentinel. Times that by how many there are (224)
Makes 42026.88 melee strength against ranged soldiers.
Now my commander however has a 58% ranged bonus, Say I used deathly horrors for my attack, there normal strength is 162 but58% of that is 93.96 giving my deathly horror a total strength of 255.96
I can use 52 horrors on each wave, and I have 4 waves.
The strength of 52 horrors for me is 13309.92
So if all my waves have 52 horrors, 21 shield walls and 9 breaching towers. I will be hitting him with 13309.92 strength per wave.
Times that by 4 since I have 4 waves makes 53239.68 strength all together, more then his strength, so I shall win his flank.
He will beat the first 3 waves, but I will beat him on the last wave, this is because by the last wave he only has 2097.12 strength left which means I only need 9 more horrors to finish him. I have 42 free slots for troops which I can fill with demon horrors!
Conclusion
So this guy can't hold his flank against me, but then i'm always running the risk that he will be online to defend and will switch his setup to all ranged soldiers and tools, hammering me. or he could do a full melee smash and I would have no chance.
Although my commander is weaker, I can beat him, but I would recommend never risking it
How do I know if I can beat/defend the flank?
Do all the steps I just did. Sometimes if you use all ranged troops you can beat it, but will be crushed if they are online.
If your getting attacked by foreigners in particular and have enough time, do all the calculations and see if you can maybe hold 2 flanks.
But other players are usually smarter.
When trying to work out if you can win when defending, make sure you factor in the players commander stats, not just your fully powered defense ones
Why you can't hold the flank at lv70?
As far as I know since the legendary levels update, players could unlock the 5th and 6th wave. Combined with flank gems, it is nearly impossible to hold to flank as the attacker has too many troops for you to withhold on the flank.
Philt123- "All you can do it try to pick a weakness in the attack and defend accordingly, using the defensive side of the HOL helps, but its impossible to give generic advice on how to defend, you have to tailor your defense to what you see coming at you. And you have to hope they made a mistake on the attack tooling, leaving a weakness you can exploit, or if hey got greedy with glory banners etc. Or don't have any flank or Front gems etc. But against a well balanced well tooled 6 wave attack, its pretty much impossible"
If there is one thing to take away from what you just read, please let it be the realization of how important moat protection is, moat protection counts to all your troops and so is therefore in my opinion the thing you want to increase the most, we are all brought up thinking that your ranged/melee bonus is the most important. And at first it is, but as soon as you get a moat get a good cast with moat protection with it, why do you think you can buy ruby moat castle upgrades? The empire team also know the importance of it...
Use moat tools in your attacks it helps so much. If they cant take down your ranged strength totally, the moat will give strength to your ranged and melee troops/
I understand this stuff will not be new to older players, especially ones in powerful alliances, this guide is more for less experienced people in the game. I was working on how to figure out exactly how many troops you will lose in an attack, but from what I can work out ggs has some hidden morale system which works on how many troops you send as well as the strength of them. I am also busy with school work so do not have a lot of time to make this kind of stuff. But will carry on trying to help the community whenever I can.
~Fexy
[4372247]
WiteLighting (GB1) [None]
:: April 5, 2016, 11:56 p.m.
Hehe, my first comm is better than yours lol xD
It's a useful thread, not to me and any other decent player above my level because we already know this but there are some people who don't know this and it would benefit them a lot.
It's a useful thread, not to me and any other decent player above my level because we already know this but there are some people who don't know this and it would benefit them a lot.
[4372254]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 6, 2016, 12:03 a.m.
thx witey, 
Very nice attack in your sig btw.
Very nice attack in your sig btw.
[4372260]
WiteLighting (GB1) [None]
:: April 6, 2016, 12:27 a.m.
Haha, at least it's real 
[4372263]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 6, 2016, 12:34 a.m.
Whats to say It didn't happen on a past account?
Not rlly, 10/photoshop, maybe he will see it one day.
Not rlly, 10/photoshop, maybe he will see it one day.
[4372265]
WiteLighting (GB1) [None]
:: April 6, 2016, 12:38 a.m.
Would be more interesting if we could see a real report....
[4372697]
Lord Roj (GB1) [GB1]
:: April 6, 2016, 1:28 p.m.
>So If I use 21 shield walls and 9 assault bridges, I have reduces his ranged strength by 450% Leaving him with 6% ranged strength left...
Each scouts strength against ranged soldiers is 139 , 6% of that is 8.34. He has 53 Scouts so 53*8.34= 442.02
So in conclusion to part 1 if I use 21 shield walls and 9 boulders his ranged soldiers will have 442.02 ranged strength left.
this is not right, mantlets take effect before moat / wall / gate bonus is applied, here 21 shields will totally negate his range so he has 0% range bonus left (0 * his moat bonus will of course be zero).
Each scouts strength against ranged soldiers is 139 , 6% of that is 8.34. He has 53 Scouts so 53*8.34= 442.02
So in conclusion to part 1 if I use 21 shield walls and 9 boulders his ranged soldiers will have 442.02 ranged strength left.
this is not right, mantlets take effect before moat / wall / gate bonus is applied, here 21 shields will totally negate his range so he has 0% range bonus left (0 * his moat bonus will of course be zero).
[4372714]
Philt123 (GB1) [GB1]
:: April 6, 2016, 1:38 p.m.
correct lord R, thats my understanding too if you negate the range to 0% it doenst matter what the wall and the moat bonus is as it will be just multiplying by 0% (for the range troops OFC).
[4372723]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 6, 2016, 1:42 p.m.
I put assault bridges instead of boulders, fixed that now.
Thanks for this info, but I admit I do not quite understand what you mean by "mantlets take effect before moat / wall / gate bonus is applied, here "
Can you elaborate?
Thanks for this info, but I admit I do not quite understand what you mean by "mantlets take effect before moat / wall / gate bonus is applied, here "
Can you elaborate?
[4372737]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 6, 2016, 1:51 p.m.
Ok so I think I understand what you mean now, but if I used 1 mantlet, would you add his remaining ranged power to the moat?
[4372738]
Philt123 (GB1) [GB1]
:: April 6, 2016, 1:52 p.m.
I think the calculation is as follows for ranged strength.
If you have 313 ranged strength i believe the wall and the moat multiply by that strength. ie 313% times by 2.47 wall and then times by 2.43 moat. So if you negate the full 313 ranged with mantlets, then the calculation will be 0% x 2.47 x 2.43 = 0%
obviously this is just for the ranged troops
If you have 313 ranged strength i believe the wall and the moat multiply by that strength. ie 313% times by 2.47 wall and then times by 2.43 moat. So if you negate the full 313 ranged with mantlets, then the calculation will be 0% x 2.47 x 2.43 = 0%
obviously this is just for the ranged troops
[4372742]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 6, 2016, 1:53 p.m.
Interesting, thank you for this I did not know, I will update the guide.
[4372745]
Philt123 (GB1) [GB1]
:: April 6, 2016, 1:54 p.m.
thats my understanding mate happy to be contredicted if anyone else has any other ideas.
[4372749]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 6, 2016, 1:57 p.m.
The thing is is if that's right I could beat his flank.
I actually have 4 waves not 3, so with that defense setup like that I could beat him with my method, but with yours it would be even easier because I could use belfrys instead of boulders right?
I actually have 4 waves not 3, so with that defense setup like that I could beat him with my method, but with yours it would be even easier because I could use belfrys instead of boulders right?
[4372767]
Lord Roj (GB1) [GB1]
:: April 6, 2016, 2:16 p.m.
Think of it this way carnifex, if you have all range on the wall you just can send 1 man and 21 shields and you will kill them all. Try the dragon sometime, you can send mantlets to win centre and not need any gate or wall tools.Philt123 (GB1) said:I think the calculation is as follows for ranged strength.
If you have 313 ranged strength i believe the wall and the moat multiply by that strength. ie 313% times by 2.47 wall and then times by 2.43 moat. So if you negate the full 313 ranged with mantlets, then the calculation will be 0% x 2.47 x 2.43 = 0%
obviously this is just for the ranged troops
Philt, I'm pretty sure gate, wall and moat defense bonus add (not multiply) together, so its 0% x 2.47 + 2.43 = 0. still zero obviously but would not be for the melee.
[4372772]
Lord Roj (GB1) [GB1]
:: April 6, 2016, 2:20 p.m.
Carnifex (GB1) said:The thing is is if that's right I could beat his flank.
I actually have 4 waves not 3, so with that defense setup like that I could beat him with my method, but with yours it would be even easier because I could use belfrys instead of boulders right?
Yes belfries better than boulders since he can change his def tools to make wall much higher than moat. getting comm with lot of wall or moat here would help (I like 80 moat on comm), also different waves can mix tools:
so
wave 1 : 21 shields / 9 belfries
wave 2 : as wave 1
wave 3 : 10 shields 20 belfries
wave 4 : as wave 3 or 15 belfries 15 flags.
[4372773]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 6, 2016, 2:21 p.m.
Are you completely sure the ranged protection comes first and the moat/gate later? I need you to be 100% sure, if this was true then as stated above I could take out his flank easily, and that's a decent setup.
[4372775]
Lord Roj (GB1) [GB1]
:: April 6, 2016, 2:22 p.m.
Carnifex (GB1) said:Are you completely sure the ranged protection comes first and the moat/gate later? I need you to be 100% sure, if this was true then as stated above I could take out his flank easily, and that's a decent setup.
Yes 100%, as I said try dragon or any tower in sands with all range on wall, you can kill with 1 man and correct number of mantlets, no wall tools needed.
Plus:
>>So this guy can hold his flank against me, I could use vets or cave units, flank gems or get a stronger ranged commander and then I would win the flank, but then i'm always running the risk that he will be online to defend at 4am in the morning and will switch his setup to all ranged soldiers and tools, hammering me
This is not right, if you have sent plenty of shields he can;t just go all range def, he can only do that if you didn't send enough mants. Plus my setup above wave 4 can be all melee meaning he has to think a bit more about best setup.
[4372779]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 6, 2016, 2:28 p.m.
Only just got to sands, i'm not lv51 not 70.
If you can be sure this is true, then I could beat his flank. But that doesn't really seem right, he has a better cast then my comm and the best tool setup. Any thoughts on that?
If you can be sure this is true, then I could beat his flank. But that doesn't really seem right, he has a better cast then my comm and the best tool setup. Any thoughts on that?
[4372833]
vampire empire (GB1) [None]
:: April 6, 2016, 3 p.m.
you can see after sending enough cleaners, I only have to send enough mantlets to neglect the high ranged defence of dragon fire, thus the fortification effects (walls, gates, moats and etc.) only contribute to ranged defence power if it's not reduce to 0%.