Forum: empire-en

Board: [584] Players ask Players

Topic: [356288] I need Base Food math help

[-356288] bigdaddybo (US1) [US1] :: Aug. 21, 2018, 4:24 a.m.

At what point mathmatically is a level 10 food item better than a base 8 food item?

I guess what I'm asking is there a production percentage of the granary that is too low to make the base 8 food item worth while?

[4990236] Imperius (GB1) [GB1] :: Aug. 21, 2018, 7:25 a.m.

granary at 31%-28% seems to be the stopping point for most when it comes to base food replace below that with food items

[4990246] Philt123 (GB1) [GB1] :: Aug. 21, 2018, 8:20 a.m.

look at how much food you are producing per hour, remove a single deco and look again, if the food drops less than 400 per hour its worth adding 2 more graneries with level 10 (non base) items to it.

[4990266] Herveus (AU1) [AU1] :: Aug. 21, 2018, 9:50 a.m.

I got that in a spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E3Yop3jCHnv4tT1qbxJaNCG5_6lCkf-fMi7YFWckevA/edit?usp=sharing

[4990432] BM Fujiwara [None] :: Aug. 21, 2018, 5:09 p.m.

bigdaddybo (US1) said:

At what point mathmatically is a level 10 food item better than a base 8 food item?

I guess what I'm asking is there a production percentage of the granary that is too low to make the base 8 food item worth while?

You're slightly asking the wrong question. You should always have fifteen level 10 food items. The question really becomes "how many base food items should I have?", and the answer is similar to what PhilT posted - the point where the food production from both the granaries+items is less than you'd have gotten from a decoration in the same space, is the point you stop.

In case you want a hand quickly working out the maths behind how much food a level 8 base items gives, use the following screenshot to give you the info you need to work it out for your own castles:

http://prntscr.com/klb2r1

base food = 50 / hr, * 0.75 (the 75% productivity for that granary) * 10.66 (bonus from PO, flour mills, research, yada yada) = 399.75 / hr. Dropping a deco in that castle loses me about 105 food / hr, so I'm better off switching out decorations for granaries down to at least 11% productivity for level 8 base items (50 * 0.11 * 10.66 * 2 = 117.26, more than I lose for the deco being removed).

It's actually slightly more complicated than that, and you also have to take into account that lost production from PO is also lost production speed on tools and recruitment, but certainly down to 23% you'll always be better off with base foods, followed by another 15 granaries on level 10 ordinary foods.

[4990525] Herveus (AU1) [AU1] :: Aug. 21, 2018, 9:37 p.m.

BM Fujiwara said:

bigdaddybo (US1) said:

At what point mathmatically is a level 10 food item better than a base 8 food item?

I guess what I'm asking is there a production percentage of the granary that is too low to make the base 8 food item worth while?

You're slightly asking the wrong question. You should always have fifteen level 10 food items. The question really becomes "how many base food items should I have?", and the answer is similar to what PhilT posted - the point where the food production from both the granaries+items is less than you'd have gotten from a decoration in the same space, is the point you stop.

In case you want a hand quickly working out the maths behind how much food a level 8 base items gives, use the following screenshot to give you the info you need to work it out for your own castles:

http://prntscr.com/klb2r1

base food = 50 / hr, * 0.75 (the 75% productivity for that granary) * 10.66 (bonus from PO, flour mills, research, yada yada) = 399.75 / hr. Dropping a deco in that castle loses me about 105 food / hr, so I'm better off switching out decorations for granaries down to at least 11% productivity for level 8 base items (50 * 0.11 * 10.66 * 2 = 117.26, more than I lose for the deco being removed).

It's actually slightly more complicated than that, and you also have to take into account that lost production from PO is also lost production speed on tools and recruitment, but certainly down to 23% you'll always be better off with base foods, followed by another 15 granaries on level 10 ordinary foods.

[4990553] OFERMA (RO1) [RO1] :: Aug. 22, 2018, 4:57 a.m.

For an lvl8 outpost with +13000 OP usually start adding base food items from 17% downwards.

[4990595] Herveus (AU1) [AU1] :: Aug. 22, 2018, 9:57 a.m.

Thanatos (RO1) said:

For an lvl8 outpost with +13000 OP usually start adding base food items from 17% downwards.

my op's are 14k+ po and not even 23% works 

[4991020] BM Fujiwara [None] :: Aug. 23, 2018, 3:36 p.m.

Herveus (AU1) said:

Donald Trump meme

Wow, a cogent and persuasive argument, I'm convinced already!

Herveus (AU1) said:

Thanatos (RO1) said:

For an lvl8 outpost with +13000 OP usually start adding base food items from 17% downwards.

my op's are 14k+ po and not even 23% works 

Well, that's kinda odd. My weakest food producing outpost (currently total around 25k/hr) makes 864 food per hour from specifically the 23% and 17% buildings on level 7 base food items, with a PO of under 12k. Removing the best decoration from that outpost drops production by about 205 food/hr for the same 5x10 space

I guess we have magical outposts in the UK

EDIT: The PO difference obviously doesn't explain it either. With a higher PO, the food production would naturally be higher from the two granaries, and the comparative loss due to the sqrt formula from removing a decoration would be lower. So with 14k PO the benefit of putting the items on those granaries would be even more noticeable

[4991030] Herveus (AU1) [AU1] :: Aug. 23, 2018, 3:57 p.m.

BM Fujiwara said:

Herveus (AU1) said:

Thanatos (RO1) said:

For an lvl8 outpost with +13000 OP usually start adding base food items from 17% downwards.

my op's are 14k+ po and not even 23% works 

Well, that's kinda odd. My weakest food producing outpost (currently total around 25k/hr) makes 864 food per hour from specifically the 23% and 17% buildings on level 7 base food items, with a PO of under 12k. Removing the best decoration from that outpost drops production by about 205 food/hr for the same 5x10 space

I guess we have magical outposts in the UK

EDIT: The PO difference obviously doesn't explain it either. With a higher PO, the food production would naturally be higher from the two granaries, and the comparative loss due to the sqrt formula from removing a decoration would be lower. So with 14k PO the benefit of putting the items on those granaries would be even more noticeable

My best OP has a PO of 337% I got the sun symbol, beri green vip level 9 hunting lodge on, research, overseer my 23% produes 487 with a level 10 +200 build item, with a level 10 base food item 434. removing the bets deco 5x10 right now drops it by only 270 but once my granaries are level 30 etc, only got 1 maxed and by the time they are level 30 mostyl that will be over 400 so 27 is ideal, unless you plan to waste level 14 base food items on the low % ones

[4991039] BM Fujiwara [None] :: Aug. 23, 2018, 4:32 p.m.

The difference between a base and a non-base isn't the issue, as they aren't competing. Unless decorations start making a bigger difference than 400 fd/hr, you're always going to want to use 15 non-base items. The question is whether 2xGranaries with base items makes a bigger difference than the deco they'd replace. If you're making 487 in a granary with a base deco, then it's the equivalent food-space usage of a deco that gives you an extra 974 fd/hr, so the fact it's less than a non-base item is kinda irrelevant as there's no way you have a deco giving you that big a bonus.

For reference, my 25k per hour has one level 25 granary, 7 level 23 granaries, and all the rest are 20 and below. I also was missing 6 non-base items, so it's actually now 25.9k (all are level 8 at the moment), but obviously would be 26.5k when I get around to upgrading them to level 10. All base items are level 7.

[4991053] Herveus (AU1) [AU1] :: Aug. 23, 2018, 5:45 p.m.

BM Fujiwara said:

The difference between a base and a non-base isn't the issue, as they aren't competing. Unless decorations start making a bigger difference than 400 fd/hr, you're always going to want to use 15 non-base items. The question is whether 2xGranaries with base items makes a bigger difference than the deco they'd replace. If you're making 487 in a granary with a base deco, then it's the equivalent food-space usage of a deco that gives you an extra 974 fd/hr, so the fact it's less than a non-base item is kinda irrelevant as there's no way you have a deco giving you that big a bonus.

For reference, my 25k per hour has one level 25 granary, 7 level 23 granaries, and all the rest are 20 and below. I also was missing 6 non-base items, so it's actually now 25.9k (all are level 8 at the moment), but obviously would be 26.5k when I get around to upgrading them to level 10. All base items are level 7.

the point is running an base food on a 23% and 17% would be a wast cause deco does end up making over 400 food/h difference which is all they'd make as they'd be 0% ones.

[4991056] BM Fujiwara [None] :: Aug. 23, 2018, 6:06 p.m.

Herveus (AU1) said:

BM Fujiwara said:

The difference between a base and a non-base isn't the issue, as they aren't competing. Unless decorations start making a bigger difference than 400 fd/hr, you're always going to want to use 15 non-base items. The question is whether 2xGranaries with base items makes a bigger difference than the deco they'd replace. If you're making 487 in a granary with a base deco, then it's the equivalent food-space usage of a deco that gives you an extra 974 fd/hr, so the fact it's less than a non-base item is kinda irrelevant as there's no way you have a deco giving you that big a bonus.

For reference, my 25k per hour has one level 25 granary, 7 level 23 granaries, and all the rest are 20 and below. I also was missing 6 non-base items, so it's actually now 25.9k (all are level 8 at the moment), but obviously would be 26.5k when I get around to upgrading them to level 10. All base items are level 7.

the point is running an base food on a 23% and 17% would be a wast cause deco does end up making over 400 food/h difference which is all they'd make as they'd be 0% ones.

No, that's missing the point. 23% and 17% ones would obviously be doing fine with the bases, and non-base on 0% buildings works very well. Even with under 12k PO, the food loss difference of dropping a 275 PO deco is around 205 or so, so two 0% buildings with non-base items increases net food production by nearly 200 fd/hr.

You'd need a really fairly low PO and a very large food production for a deco removal to exceed 400 fd/hr production drop.

[4991094] Herveus (AU1) [AU1] :: Aug. 23, 2018, 8:05 p.m.

BM Fujiwara said:

Herveus (AU1) said:

BM Fujiwara said:

The difference between a base and a non-base isn't the issue, as they aren't competing. Unless decorations start making a bigger difference than 400 fd/hr, you're always going to want to use 15 non-base items. The question is whether 2xGranaries with base items makes a bigger difference than the deco they'd replace. If you're making 487 in a granary with a base deco, then it's the equivalent food-space usage of a deco that gives you an extra 974 fd/hr, so the fact it's less than a non-base item is kinda irrelevant as there's no way you have a deco giving you that big a bonus.

For reference, my 25k per hour has one level 25 granary, 7 level 23 granaries, and all the rest are 20 and below. I also was missing 6 non-base items, so it's actually now 25.9k (all are level 8 at the moment), but obviously would be 26.5k when I get around to upgrading them to level 10. All base items are level 7.

the point is running an base food on a 23% and 17% would be a wast cause deco does end up making over 400 food/h difference which is all they'd make as they'd be 0% ones.

No, that's missing the point. 23% and 17% ones would obviously be doing fine with the bases, and non-base on 0% buildings works very well. Even with under 12k PO, the food loss difference of dropping a 275 PO deco is around 205 or so, so two 0% buildings with non-base items increases net food production by nearly 200 fd/hr.

You'd need a really fairly low PO and a very large food production for a deco removal to exceed 400 fd/hr production drop.

You need a high base food production for it to drop over 400 food/hr in green, in outers it works because of the high bonus from rv's

[4991131] BM Fujiwara [None] :: Aug. 23, 2018, 11:48 p.m.

Herveus (AU1) said:

You need a high base food production for it to drop over 400 food/hr in green, in outers it works because of the high bonus from rv's

Huh, from removing a deco? For me it's under 200 in outers and a tiny bit over 200 in green ops. It's not close to 400 anywhere...

EDIT: just checked my outpost, I have to lose around 600 PO, or a bit under 2.5 decos (equivalent space for 5 extra granaries), to lose 400 food/hr. Allowing for the fact a level 23 with item is producing 202 base, and a level 30 with item is producing 228 base, then even allowing for the increase in eventual food production when I max the granaries, the PO loss from a deco is going to go up at most 15-20%, so we're still looking at a max of about 250 fd/hr lost. Even if all the maths was off and it was 300, it's still better to replace that space with 400 food/hr from two low % grans with base item totalling 400+ or two 0% grans with level 10 non-base food items

[4991136] zeus1998 (GB1) [GB1] :: Aug. 24, 2018, 12:05 a.m.

I have 22 granny's and 2 farms in my 8 fooder and it's going great. 30.2k food, my base tokens aren't all lvl8 or higher and only a few 300+ po items. 

[4991138] BM Fujiwara [None] :: Aug. 24, 2018, 12:14 a.m.

zeus1998 (GB1) said:

I have 22 granny's and 2 farms in my 8 fooder and it's going great. 30.2k food, my base tokens aren't all lvl8 or higher and only a few 300+ po items. 

looks like 24 grannies to me, and don't those little farmhouses look cute lol

ofc, being in an alliance with something like 8 metros helps a bit too

[4991586] maverique (GB1) [GB1] :: Aug. 26, 2018, 9:39 a.m.

Food is something we need to make ourselves work.

Some people need food as they have medical problems and do not realise when to stop.

I love all food and will be eating a Lebanese meal after giving folk abuse during the football.

Philt is close to the perfection food wise....and has it balanced out...…

Me and he could sit and drink a beer and eat till we die of fatness.

On a serious not eat all your greens......make sure of the 5 a day...……...OR GET A fucking life.

[4991714] TheBigO (ASIA1) [ASIA1] :: Aug. 26, 2018, 8:05 p.m.

Okay, so base food items don't simply add to your base food production? I was under the impression they did and that the other food items(ones you can build) added to your total after all production bonuses.

[4991752] JYT (US1) [US1] :: Aug. 26, 2018, 10:31 p.m.

Equipping a base food item has the same effect as increasing the level of the granary. So all public order, flag symbol, etc effects are added on to the effect of the base food item. A base food item that gives +100 food/hr to the base granary stats will give 100*public order bonus*coat of arms bonus*etc. which should (hopefully) come out to more than a 100 food/hr bonus.
On the other hand, the craftable items are a straight-up, flat, no-strings-attached bonus to food prod. +200 food/hr is +200 food/hr.
@TheBigO (ASIA1)