Forum: empire-en
Board: [589] Strategy & Tactics Discussion
Topic: [305826] The Absolute Very Best Defense Setup Possible And How It Works
[-305826]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 17, 2016, 1:27 p.m.
Been working on this for a while, but must give thanks to AmyHero6 for advice on the matter of melee/ranged ratio.
This was mainly to help my alliance, but no reason you cant all have it.
Now most people think that the best defense setup is 75/25 melee to ranged ratio, With 1 fire moat, 3 slits and 1 mach or 2 slits 2 machs depending on your alliances opinion, And although this setup is good, it can be beaten when your offline, which I proved to you in my guide on beating the wall. The setup i'm about to show you is almost impossible to be beaten. Please note that no this can't hold against 6 waves, but literally nothing can...
What is the setup?
How does it work?
Ok so your 4 net percentages on the top are your wall, melee strength, ranged strength, gate and moat, we are defending a flank so forget about gate
The big thing is here that your wall, ranged strength, and moat can all be reduced to 0 with tools and a good comm. The only thing the enemy cannot tamper with is your melee strength, which means that is what we want to increase. 4 slots of lime bombs increase our melee strength by 132% and assuming we have a 90% melee cast, we have 322% melee strength altogether.
Now the reason we have some ranged soldiers, is because that means they will be forced to use mantlets, and then either choose the reduce your wall protection or moat protection, if we had used all melee troops, they could of used tools to reduce both. They are going to reduce whatever is strongest, which will be your moat since were not using wall tools, now it varying depending on the cast you have, but you will be having say 100% wall protection.(Assuming here the comm and cast wall percentages are the same) This combined gives your melee troops 472% strength against ranged soldiers.
Now the reason we are using veteran swordsman, is because they are the melee troops with the strongest combat strength against melee soldiers which is 72.
Assuming the enemy has a 90% ranged comm. he will need 283 deathly horrors to beat your flank. 262 veteran deathly horrors or 229 cave hunters. They can put 256 men on the flank, so the only way they are going to beat you is if they have an army of cave hunters. And if they do happen to have an army of cave hunters,which only a few people in the game have, if you are online you can crush them by going all ranged and slits.
Why do people not use this setup all the time?
Well i'm glad you asked!
2 reasons really.
1. Lime power bombs are so hard to get and then stockpile. You would need over 80 minimum to cover all your castles.
2, If you need support, it is VITAL you are only supported with veteran swordsmen for melee. Otherwise other troops will go on the wall and get rid of the vet swords. meaning you would lose the flank.
Why it can still be beaten?
There are 2 ways this setup can be beaten,
1. Of course the 5th and 6th wave, then you pretty much have no chance.
2. Flank gems, they may just beat you with them, but people favor cy gems much more so you probably wont see that ever happen.
Any advice/questions please comment below!
~Fexy
This was mainly to help my alliance, but no reason you cant all have it.
You will need veteran swordsman on the wall, and veteran composite bowmen in the ratio 80-20 With all lime bombs on the wall and a fire moat, here is why
:
:
How does it work?
Ok so your 4 net percentages on the top are your wall, melee strength, ranged strength, gate and moat, we are defending a flank so forget about gate
The big thing is here that your wall, ranged strength, and moat can all be reduced to 0 with tools and a good comm. The only thing the enemy cannot tamper with is your melee strength, which means that is what we want to increase. 4 slots of lime bombs increase our melee strength by 132% and assuming we have a 90% melee cast, we have 322% melee strength altogether.
Now the reason we have some ranged soldiers, is because that means they will be forced to use mantlets, and then either choose the reduce your wall protection or moat protection, if we had used all melee troops, they could of used tools to reduce both. They are going to reduce whatever is strongest, which will be your moat since were not using wall tools, now it varying depending on the cast you have, but you will be having say 100% wall protection.(Assuming here the comm and cast wall percentages are the same) This combined gives your melee troops 472% strength against ranged soldiers.
Now the reason we are using veteran swordsman, is because they are the melee troops with the strongest combat strength against melee soldiers which is 72.
Altogether 472% of 72 is 339.84 strength per vet swordsman. Now at level 70 we can put 320 men on the wall, 256 of them will be vet swords, giving all your men 86999.04 strength against ranged soldiers.
Assuming the enemy has a 90% ranged comm. he will need 283 deathly horrors to beat your flank. 262 veteran deathly horrors or 229 cave hunters. They can put 256 men on the flank, so the only way they are going to beat you is if they have an army of cave hunters. And if they do happen to have an army of cave hunters,which only a few people in the game have, if you are online you can crush them by going all ranged and slits.
Why do people not use this setup all the time?
Well i'm glad you asked!
2 reasons really.
1. Lime power bombs are so hard to get and then stockpile. You would need over 80 minimum to cover all your castles.
2, If you need support, it is VITAL you are only supported with veteran swordsmen for melee. Otherwise other troops will go on the wall and get rid of the vet swords. meaning you would lose the flank.
Why it can still be beaten?
There are 2 ways this setup can be beaten,
1. Of course the 5th and 6th wave, then you pretty much have no chance.
2. Flank gems, they may just beat you with them, but people favor cy gems much more so you probably wont see that ever happen.
Any advice/questions please comment below!
~Fexy
[4383209]
WiteLighting (GB1) [None]
:: April 17, 2016, 2:09 p.m.
Interesting. I already know this (obviously) but others don't. It is only useful to higher levels with vet swordsman though and they cost an awful lot to train. Another useful thread. Nice one Carnifex 
[4383308]
Flare (GB1) [None]
:: April 17, 2016, 3:07 p.m.
The attacker would be able to get through the flank more easily than you have calculated if they used wall and moat tools.
Vet swords at 322% range strength = 231.84 (4 limes and 90% from cast)
Range defence of 256 = 59351.04
Vet composite bowman at 190% range strength = 347.7 (assuming 90% range on cast)
Range defence of 64 = 22252.8
That leaves the defender with 81603.84 range strength (slightly less than you calculated) so the attacker would do better. Unless I made a mistake somewhere.
I don't think it really makes much difference to the overall point of this so nice thread
[4383350]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 17, 2016, 3:35 p.m.
I am busy right now, will work it out later, but you may be right.Flare (GB1) said:The attacker would be able to get through the flank more easily than you have calculated if they used wall and moat tools.
Vet swords at 322% range strength = 231.84 (4 limes and 90% from cast)
Range defence of 256 = 59351.04
Vet composite bowman at 190% range strength = 347.7 (assuming 90% range on cast)
Range defence of 64 = 22252.8
That leaves the defender with 81603.84 range strength (slightly less than you calculated) so the attacker would do better. Unless I made a mistake somewhere.
I don't think it really makes much difference to the overall point of this so nice thread
If so the problem may be the melee/ranged ratio, 80/20 was a recommended estimation, I could work out the exact ratio, but that would take forever.
[4383427]
MightyHawklord (GB1) [GB1]
:: April 17, 2016, 4:50 p.m.
Vet swords at 322% range strength = 231.84 (4 limes and 90% from cast)
i always assumed powder bombs were melee and didn't affect the ranged,
at least thats what it says in my defence screen,
with powder bombs, ranged stays at 190 no matter how many i add
[4383428]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 17, 2016, 4:54 p.m.
Hawk, he means the strength against ranged soldiers that the vet swords have.
[4383480]
MightyHawklord (GB1) [GB1]
:: April 17, 2016, 5:19 p.m.
he's done it ranged,
72 x 3.22 = 231
72 x 3.22 = 231
[4383779]
bobjoerock (US1) [None]
:: April 17, 2016, 6:55 p.m.
there is a problem with this. There are many titles that increase attack power and flank limits.
Also another is courtyard. Most ruby whales just go for the country yard. +80% cy bonus just from gem
Beriomd titles +15% more attacker on flank and top 1 get +20% cy bonus
Also Storm title get +20% attack power.
Also another is courtyard. Most ruby whales just go for the country yard. +80% cy bonus just from gem
Beriomd titles +15% more attacker on flank and top 1 get +20% cy bonus
Also Storm title get +20% attack power.
[4383797]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 17, 2016, 7:10 p.m.
Yes bob, there are loopholes like I said. Them titles however are held by very few players. So I did not factor that in. The cy gems are a different matter entirely, this guide is just for holding a flank, not the rest of the battle.
[4383799]
ang1243 (GB1) [GB1]
:: April 17, 2016, 7:10 p.m.
USeful for non level 70s, but not useful for level 70s, just need a flank gem and it gets smushed
[4383800]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 17, 2016, 7:12 p.m.
Yup, you could have your own flank gems in return, but i'm sure most people value cy gems more,
[4384589]
Philt123 (GB1) [GB1]
:: April 18, 2016, 4:22 p.m.
Its a very bold statement to say that impossible to break, with 5 waves. you have made some very big assumptions, firstly for this work the way you say it works you really need a cast with very big wall AND very big moat. Which basically means you are talking ice cast or super cast.
Why?
Well for example if you have a small wall bonus on your cast and you have a commander coming at you with 100+ wall then the attacker will not have to use any wall tools in his attack. to totally negate any additional wall bonus, which means he can just use moat tools and SW's . if thats the case the attacker will quickly take out the wall. The same goes if the cast has no moat bonus. and the attacker has =80 moat on his comm you could well only be facing +40% moat.
So the above example only really works if you have a cast with big moat and big wall ie a super cast or an ice cast or sam cast.
Also putting 4 Lb's on the wall is a brave move, with the amount of shells in the game, its a little gutting to come back to find some low level player has tool cleaned you of all your LB's losing 16 per hit. or 20 or evern 24 if a 5 or 6 waver hits you. not to mention being tool cleaned by the RB attacks in all relms. If you go with this as a standard offline setup then you need to be prepared to lose a lot of LB's If you are prepared to do this then yes its a very good offline setup. Hard to beat but not impossible to the right commander / tool setup. etc. And its effectivness is very cast dependant, needing both high moat and high wall to be truly effective. and who has 7 casts with 80 moat & 100+ wall ?
Why?
Well for example if you have a small wall bonus on your cast and you have a commander coming at you with 100+ wall then the attacker will not have to use any wall tools in his attack. to totally negate any additional wall bonus, which means he can just use moat tools and SW's . if thats the case the attacker will quickly take out the wall. The same goes if the cast has no moat bonus. and the attacker has =80 moat on his comm you could well only be facing +40% moat.
So the above example only really works if you have a cast with big moat and big wall ie a super cast or an ice cast or sam cast.
Also putting 4 Lb's on the wall is a brave move, with the amount of shells in the game, its a little gutting to come back to find some low level player has tool cleaned you of all your LB's losing 16 per hit. or 20 or evern 24 if a 5 or 6 waver hits you. not to mention being tool cleaned by the RB attacks in all relms. If you go with this as a standard offline setup then you need to be prepared to lose a lot of LB's If you are prepared to do this then yes its a very good offline setup. Hard to beat but not impossible to the right commander / tool setup. etc. And its effectivness is very cast dependant, needing both high moat and high wall to be truly effective. and who has 7 casts with 80 moat & 100+ wall ?
[4384597]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 18, 2016, 4:31 p.m.
True, I did say it was impossible with some exceptions, perhaps I was a little optimistic.Philt123 (GB1) said:Its a very bold statement to say that impossible to break, with 5 waves. you have made some very big assumptions, firstly for this work the way you say it works you really need a cast with very big wall AND very big moat. Which basically means you are talking ice cast or super cast.
Why?
Well for example if you have a small wall bonus on your cast and you have a commander coming at you with 100+ wall then the attacker will not have to use any wall tools in his attack. to totally negate any additional wall bonus, which means he can just use moat tools and SW's . if thats the case the attacker will quickly take out the wall. The same goes if the cast has no moat bonus. and the attacker has =80 moat on his comm you could well only be facing +40% moat.
So the above example only really works if you have a cast with big moat and big wall ie a super cast or an ice cast or sam cast.
Also putting 4 Lb's on the wall is a brave move, with the amount of shells in the game, its a little gutting to come back to find some low level player has tool cleaned you of all your LB's losing 16 per hit. or 20 or evern 24 if a 5 or 6 waver hits you. not to mention being tool cleaned by the RB attacks in all relms. If you go with this as a standard offline setup then you need to be prepared to lose a lot of LB's If you are prepared to do this then yes its a very good offline setup. Hard to beat but not impossible to the right commander / tool setup. etc. And its effectivness is very cast dependant, needing both high moat and high wall to be truly effective. and who has 7 casts with 80 moat & 100+ wall ?
A cast with high wall, moat and melee could be possible with legend gear, after a lot of work.
Every defense can be beaten, i'm not saying otherwise, but given you have a strong cast, it works pretty well.
And can hold the wall better then the standard setup.
Sam and ice cast are achievable to f2ps, sure it takes hard work, but still possible.
I did state lime bombs are expensive, and you can only probably afford this setup on 1 castle or so, unless you spend mega, but you can still do it.
As for shells, well they should not even exist anyway, ggs fault for not cracking down on them, so can't really use that as an argument, there is nothing we can do about it.
[4384605]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 18, 2016, 4:36 p.m.
And while a good comm can beat the wall then sure he will win, but then a good comm will always beat a bad cast.
I assume your comm/cast are equal, or there are infinite possibilities. A comm with 100% wall is hard to get if you did not know.
I assume your comm/cast are equal, or there are infinite possibilities. A comm with 100% wall is hard to get if you did not know.
[4384672]
hornby19 (GB1) [GB1]
:: April 18, 2016, 5:23 p.m.
tbh, i think this is old fashioned now...when you have a 6 wave highlander incoming best thing to do is flood the court with def, so you dont want to worry about only sending vet swords in defense....
[4384681]
Jeffery~West (US1) [None]
:: April 18, 2016, 5:32 p.m.
Yup as I said, 5/6 waves make defending pointless.
[4386957]
Akhil50 (IN1) [None]
:: April 21, 2016, 5:16 a.m.
Actually, you don't even need a flank gem to counter the flanks, you just need the Sterling hero from the WoF, which gives a 15% combat strength to units, along with a 90 range comm : (90 isnt the cap with a hero which gives a bonus on combat strength)
A deathly\horror's range attack power is 162, with a 90 comm it is 307.8 and with the Sterling's effect i.e another 15% , that would be 353.97 or 354 (i have checked that out)
256 on a flank, so that is -> 354 ( range power for each unit) * 256 = 90616.32
A deathly\horror's range attack power is 162, with a 90 comm it is 307.8 and with the Sterling's effect i.e another 15% , that would be 353.97 or 354 (i have checked that out)
256 on a flank, so that is -> 354 ( range power for each unit) * 256 = 90616.32
[4412699]
CliveA (GB1) [GB1]
:: May 10, 2016, 11:07 a.m.
Phil mentioned the problem of the Robber Barons depleting your Lime Bombs etc! You can prevent this by doing the mission obtained from the NPC outside your Castle that gives you 7 days protection from attacks.
[4461092]
Klingon (RO1) [None]
:: June 17, 2016, 11:36 p.m.
[4461113]
The Carnifex (US1) [US1]
:: June 18, 2016, 12:12 a.m.
Lol I know, but I can no longer update the guide.