Forum: empire-en

Board: [589] Strategy & Tactics Discussion

Topic: [347444] Step by step battle calculation from wall up to courtyard

[-347444] BraveMike (INT1) [INT1] :: Feb. 3, 2018, 5:59 p.m.

Hi All, 

I really want to know how to properly compute the battle at wall and in courtyard to know if I will  gain the upper hand.
this include all bonus from equipment and in tools, estimate troops that will be lost after the battle. given the the defender will not change his set up or troops composition. 

Best Regards
Mike 

[4907969] BraveMike (INT1) [INT1] :: Feb. 3, 2018, 6:44 p.m.

I really want a good explanation on this, hope there will be a player that is really clear this up

[4907993] BraveMike (INT1) [INT1] :: Feb. 3, 2018, 8:20 p.m.

Forgot to include the troops info 

[4907999] Herveus (AU1) [AU1] :: Feb. 3, 2018, 8:44 p.m.

Your oppenent defended like a potato and you smacked him.

There is not way to 100% calculate a battle , best you can do is get a feeling for it and be able to do good estimates.

[4908021] Potentia (US1) [None] :: Feb. 3, 2018, 9:44 p.m.

Herveus (AU1) said:

Your oppenent defended like a potato and you smacked him.

There is not way to 100% calculate a battle , best you can do is get a feeling for it and be able to do good estimates.

Feeling for it?

What is this passionate love-making?

[4908041] Herveus (AU1) [AU1] :: Feb. 3, 2018, 10:31 p.m.

Potentia (US1) said:

Herveus (AU1) said:

Your oppenent defended like a potato and you smacked him.

There is not way to 100% calculate a battle , best you can do is get a feeling for it and be able to do good estimates.

Feeling for it?

What is this passionate love-making?

yeah get a feeling for how hard your troops are going to either fk them or how they are going to get fked , no passion just raw fking.

[4908059] BraveMike (INT1) [INT1] :: Feb. 3, 2018, 11:24 p.m.

[4908061] Herveus (AU1) [AU1] :: Feb. 3, 2018, 11:32 p.m.

BraveMike (INT1) said:

just need a deeper answer,

I need to know the battle mechanics of this game. how they choose which type of troops to be remain and remove after the battle.

Feeling is for much well experienced player, and I will come to that after I fully understand on how they come up with the result

once I had a good sleep I will try my best to explain it

[4908063] K1LLER (US1) [US1] :: Feb. 3, 2018, 11:45 p.m.

Herveus (AU1) said:

Potentia (US1) said:

Herveus (AU1) said:

Your oppenent defended like a potato and you smacked him.

There is not way to 100% calculate a battle , best you can do is get a feeling for it and be able to do good estimates.

Feeling for it?

What is this passionate love-making?

yeah get a feeling for how hard your troops are going to either fk them or how they are going to get fked , no passion just raw fking.

Just how I like it 

[4908069] We_Ner (US1) [None] :: Feb. 4, 2018, 12:22 a.m.

There is no exact calculation for battles in this game there are way way too many variables added in to muddy up any attempt at it. Your wasting your time, use your best troops and tools and learn the techniques to setting up proper attacks that cover defense changes. Otherwise just tool according to the espionage and win the wall if they are offline like the tater tot you hit above. Courtyard battle is simply who has the upper hand with equipment/gems and or support vs attack size. 

[4908075] Venom (ASIA1) [ASIA1] :: Feb. 4, 2018, 1:08 a.m.

Like said above, not exact calculations, if you send the exact same attack on nomads 10 times, at least 1 will somehow have more/less troop losses than the rest. All I can say is, more troops in cy, more cy power and that wall is the weakest defense, then gate and moat being strongest. 

[4908083] Alcove2 (US1) [None] :: Feb. 4, 2018, 3:14 a.m.

In my experience with nomads and samurai, figuring out whether there is more melee or range troops on the wall helps to defeat them easily.

For example, if the samurai camp has a layout of:
Right Flank 86 Melee 56 Range / Front 152 Melee 156 Range / Left Flank 30 Melee 114 Range,
I would send focused attacks on Front and Left Flank on the first wave, with only Melee Attackers on the Left Flank and only Range Attackers on the Center. Then on other waves, I will load the Center and Left Flank with as many troops as possible without care for balance.

The rational for such attack is: 
1. The balance between melee and ranged units on the Left Flank is more skewed than right => Attack Left Flank and not Right Flank, and do not load any soldiers onto the Right Flank on any wave.
2. Left has less Melee units than Range Units => Send out Melee Attackers only
3. Center has almost equal number of Range and Melee Units => Send only Range Attackers b/c Range buff can be 100% nullified by tools.
4. Assuming the defense will crumble on the first wave => load the following waves (on the same Flank and Center as 1st Wave) with as many troops as possible to aid in the courtyard.  

Using the above rules, I'm able to defeat lvl90 Samurai Camps and Nomad Campus with about 20~30 units lost per attack, with the maximum loss of about 40 units in bad cases. FYI, I'm lvl70/20 at the moment, so this may not be as much help for you, assuming you're much higher level than me.

[4908098] Peter John (US1) [US1] :: Feb. 4, 2018, 7:46 a.m.

BraveMike (INT1) said:

Hi All, 

I really want to know how to properly compute the battle at wall and in courtyard to know if I will  gain the upper hand.
this include all bonus from equipment and in tools, estimate troops that will be lost after the battle. given the the defender will not change his set up or troops composition. 

Best Regards
Mike 

This is where NPC is good for. An RBC at same level, will always have same exact defense formation, so you can change your attack tactic and see the difference. A Nomad/Sammy lvl 90 also a good candidate, however if may cost you significant troops if you happened to send wrong formation. RBC is green while you are leveling up is a really good way to figure out the battle calculation. You do however need to have a pretty good math skill.

All I can give you tips is, first try to figure out the power calculation. This is pure logic and if you have a good logic and math skill, after several iterations you'll figure it out.

The second step, is harder as once you figure out the actual effective power uses in the battle, you need to find out the formula converting them to loss ratio. This unfortunatly requires a lot of BR sample as you will have to perform interpolation. To make thing a bit complicated, there is a "random" factor (as I hope you can see that sometime attacking same exact def formation with same exact att. formation will yield a slight different result). However fear not, I haven't seen anything bigger than +/- 5%.

One thing for sure, no one will tell you out of the blue. You need to walk the walk yourself.

[4908126] Marchemedes (AU1) [AU1] :: Feb. 4, 2018, 10:06 a.m.

Alcove2 (US1) said:

In my experience with nomads and samurai, figuring out whether there is more melee or range troops on the wall helps to defeat them easily.

For example, if the samurai camp has a layout of:
Right Flank 86 Melee 56 Range / Front 152 Melee 156 Range / Left Flank 30 Melee 114 Range,
I would send focused attacks on Front and Left Flank on the first wave, with only Melee Attackers on the Left Flank and only Range Attackers on the Center. Then on other waves, I will load the Center and Left Flank with as many troops as possible without care for balance.

The rational for such attack is: 
1. The balance between melee and ranged units on the Left Flank is more skewed than right => Attack Left Flank and not Right Flank, and do not load any soldiers onto the Right Flank on any wave.
2. Left has less Melee units than Range Units => Send out Melee Attackers only
3. Center has almost equal number of Range and Melee Units => Send only Range Attackers b/c Range buff can be 100% nullified by tools.
4. Assuming the defense will crumble on the first wave => load the following waves (on the same Flank and Center as 1st Wave) with as many troops as possible to aid in the courtyard.  

Using the above rules, I'm able to defeat lvl90 Samurai Camps and Nomad Campus with about 20~30 units lost per attack, with the maximum loss of about 40 units in bad cases. FYI, I'm lvl70/20 at the moment, so this may not be as much help for you, assuming you're much higher level than me.

Don't do this, lol.

Given the troop ratios you've provided, it'd be much better to go centre and right, than centre and left. 

The right flank having more range means you can send range attackers with mantlets. The 114 range troops have 0% power, and your range attackers face 33 melee troops (that can't defend against range), so easy win. 

Since you leave the left flank which is majority melee, you fill wave 2-4 with majority range so the CY is majority range to counter the majority melee that will be there from the left flank you didn't engage.

Fairly basic stuff this. Sub-20 losses no problem.

[4908142] BraveMike (INT1) [INT1] :: Feb. 4, 2018, 11:40 a.m.

We_Ner (US1) said:

There is no exact calculation for battles in this game there are way way too many variables added in to muddy up any attempt at it. Your wasting your time, use your best troops and tools and learn the techniques to setting up proper attacks that cover defense changes. Otherwise just tool according to the espionage and win the wall if they are offline like the tater tot you hit above. Courtyard battle is simply who has the upper hand with equipment/gems and or support vs attack size. 

Peter John (US1) said:

BraveMike (INT1) said:

Hi All, 

I really want to know how to properly compute the battle at wall and in courtyard to know if I will  gain the upper hand.
this include all bonus from equipment and in tools, estimate troops that will be lost after the battle. given the the defender will not change his set up or troops composition. 

Best Regards
Mike 

This is where NPC is good for. An RBC at same level, will always have same exact defense formation, so you can change your attack tactic and see the difference. A Nomad/Sammy lvl 90 also a good candidate, however if may cost you significant troops if you happened to send wrong formation. RBC is green while you are leveling up is a really good way to figure out the battle calculation. You do however need to have a pretty good math skill.

All I can give you tips is, first try to figure out the power calculation. This is pure logic and if you have a good logic and math skill, after several iterations you'll figure it out.

The second step, is harder as once you figure out the actual effective power uses in the battle, you need to find out the formula converting them to loss ratio. This unfortunatly requires a lot of BR sample as you will have to perform interpolation. To make thing a bit complicated, there is a "random" factor (as I hope you can see that sometime attacking same exact def formation with same exact att. formation will yield a slight different result). However fear not, I haven't seen anything bigger than +/- 5%.

One thing for sure, no one will tell you out of the blue. You need to walk the walk yourself.

Thanks for the advice, I made some calculation but it has a difference for about 5-8% in the battle result. and I already know how to compute the loss ratio, But one thing is I really need to know, how the system chose what troops will be remove or remain after the battle. for example I am the attacker and I use an assorted types of troops for attack, assuming that I already know the power calculation of both attacker and defender. is there any way can i figure out what troops will remain or remove? or it will be base on the power stat of each troops?

[4908181] Alcove2 (US1) [None] :: Feb. 4, 2018, 2:44 p.m.

Marchemedes (AU1) said:

Don't do this, lol.

Given the troop ratios you've provided, it'd be much better to go centre and right, than centre and left. 

The right flank having more range means you can send range attackers with mantlets. The 114 range troops have 0% power, and your range attackers face 33 melee troops (that can't defend against range), so easy win. 

Since you leave the left flank which is majority melee, you fill wave 2-4 with majority range so the CY is majority range to counter the majority melee that will be there from the left flank you didn't engage.

Fairly basic stuff this. Sub-20 losses no problem.

If what you say is true, then I have some questions about the melee/range unit relationship. Based upon what you said, 
1. Do you mean that melee defenders can't win against even a single ranged attacker, or do you simply mean that the ratio is so skewed that it's possible to win an attack against only melee-defender wall with an incredibly smaller number of ranged-attackers only?
2. If you attack a wall of only ranged-defenders, can you win the wall with only a single ranged attacker with enough mantlets?
3. Based on the first question, the description of melee defenders say that they are strong against ranged attackers, while the ranged attackers are described as strong against melee defenders. So if a wall is only melee defenders (say stat of 125 melee/25 range) and you attack the wall with equal number of ranged attackers (say a same stat of 125 range), which side would the system favor if no tools are used? And vice versa, what about a similar situation but with Ranged defenders only and Melee attackers only?

Finally, I tried your method on lvl90 Samurai camp, and it doesn't look like the number of losses on the flank is lower than what I usually get. It just might be that my sample size is too small, but could you please tell me what your usual lineup against Samurai camp is? FYI, I use mostly Imperial Marksmen for range and Imperial Knight for melee on the first waves since they are rather cheap and easy to recruit more of.

[4908268] Marchemedes (AU1) [AU1] :: Feb. 4, 2018, 7:32 p.m.

Alcove2 (US1) said:

Marchemedes (AU1) said:

If what you say is true, then I have some questions about the melee/range unit relationship. Based upon what you said, 
1. Do you mean that melee defenders can't win against even a single ranged attacker, or do you simply mean that the ratio is so skewed that it's possible to win an attack against only melee-defender wall with an incredibly smaller number of ranged-attackers only?
2. If you attack a wall of only ranged-defenders, can you win the wall with only a single ranged attacker with enough mantlets?
3. Based on the first question, the description of melee defenders say that they are strong against ranged attackers, while the ranged attackers are described as strong against melee defenders. So if a wall is only melee defenders (say stat of 125 melee/25 range) and you attack the wall with equal number of ranged attackers (say a same stat of 125 range), which side would the system favor if no tools are used? And vice versa, what about a similar situation but with Ranged defenders only and Melee attackers only?

Finally, I tried your method on lvl90 Samurai camp, and it doesn't look like the number of losses on the flank is lower than what I usually get. It just might be that my sample size is too small, but could you please tell me what your usual lineup against Samurai camp is? FYI, I use mostly Imperial Marksmen for range and Imperial Knight for melee on the first waves since they are rather cheap and easy to recruit more of.

You're oversimplifying the algorithm. The calculation is more complex than that, it has weighted calcs based on troop volumes. I don't know those exact weightings (no one does) so that's why every time a player wants "exact calculations" it's not possible. We can only calculate given the numbers we have.

1) What? No. 33 Melee defenders (KG) x their power versus range (65, NOT 125, that's their melee power) = 2145. That's their defensive power versus a full range attack. Then you can do the other calcs i.e casta, battlements etc. To get 2145 range power to match the defence you'd need 17 imperial marksman (2145 / 132), without calcs of comm. 

2) See above. Theoretically, if a wall was 100% range defenders and you reduced their power to 0% with mantlets, you should be able to win the wall with less troops. But it's a pointless argument to make. You're going to fill the wall with troops regardless. However, with sams/noms you want to attack the middle + the flank with the highest range. Ideally, there is a flank with full melee you can leave to the CY. Then the middle and opposing flank will be higher ratio of range, which is easier to defeat with less losses (due to mantlets).

3) I think you might be trolling at this point. The description of a melee defender is they are strong against melee attackers. Seriously. If you have 100 melee defenders with 25 range power (2500) versus 100 range attackers with 125 range power (12500) with no other calculations involved... you can't work out what would win between 2500 and 12500? You've even written the numbers yourself.

If there are ALL range defenders on the wall, it doesn't matter if you use melee or range attackers, as you'll be applying enough mantlets to reduce the range defender to 0% power anyway. The whole point here is range defenders (versus nom/sam) are effectively useless when using mantlets, so attack where there are more range defenders for better results. The added bonus here is you don't attack where the melee troops are, thus more melee in CY (so send more range to CY).

[4908275] Peter John (US1) [US1] :: Feb. 4, 2018, 7:58 p.m.

BraveMike (INT1) said:

...
Thanks for the advice, I made some calculation but it has a difference for about 5-8% in the battle result. and I already know how to compute the loss ratio, But one thing is I really need to know, how the system chose what troops will be remove or remain after the battle. for example I am the attacker and I use an assorted types of troops for attack, assuming that I already know the power calculation of both attacker and defender. is there any way can i figure out what troops will remain or remove? or it will be base on the power stat of each troops?

If you get 5-8%, then you are probably close, but not quite right. I can assure you (based on past 5Y BR checking) it won't go more than +/- 5% (well, except once a while right after some update that GGS screw up, but at the end once it stabilize, it should be within that range).

One more tip, for attackers, you should get 2 loss ratio, the M attackers & the R attackers. For defender, you should get only 1 loss ratio. Or in the other word, for attackers, the Melee loss is spread equally within all M type and the Range loss is within R type. while for the defenders the loss is spread equally within all defending troops.

@Alcove2 (US1) @Marchemedes (AU1) Before you two debate any further, do you both realize that what Alcove2 called Left flank is actually what he wrote it on the right part of that sentence??????

Alcove2 (US1) said:

...
For example, if the samurai camp has a layout of:
Right Flank 86 Melee 56 Range / Front 152 Melee 156 Range / Left Flank 30 Melee 114 Range,
...

^^^He described the left flank on the right end of the statement.

So based on his example, I WOULD incline to attack left & center, HOWEVER I wouldn't attack the left the way Alcove2 described (I would use Marchemedes way, i.e. mantlet).

[4908367] JYT (US1) [US1] :: Feb. 5, 2018, 12:22 a.m.

Marchemedes (AU1) said:

Alcove2 (US1) said:

Marchemedes (AU1) said:

3. Based on the first question, the description of melee defenders say that they are strong against ranged attackers, while the ranged attackers are described as strong against melee defenders. So if a wall is only melee defenders (say stat of 125 melee/25 range) and you attack the wall with equal number of ranged attackers (say a same stat of 125 range), which side would the system favor if no tools are used? And vice versa, what about a similar situation but with Ranged defenders only and Melee attackers only?

3) I think you might be trolling at this point. The description of a melee defender is they are strong against melee attackers. Seriously. If you have 100 melee defenders with 25 range power (2500) versus 100 range attackers with 125 range power (12500) with no other calculations involved... you can't work out what would win between 2500 and 12500? You've even written the numbers yourself.

Alcove read the troop desc wrong. Melee def are strong against melee attackers.
And you should be using the melee defender's stat against ranged attackers, since that is the attacking troop type.

To answer your question, alcove, even though it is based on a wrong question, in the event that the attacker and defender have the same attack strengths, the defender will be favored, in a sense. Both sides will have no troops left, but since there are no surviving attackers the defender is held victorious.
If it helps you visualize, there are no attackers to loot and burn the defender.

Same story for the wall--if the wall "cancels out" the attack, ie both have the same total stats, then the flank is given to the defender as no attackers made it over the wall.

[4908377] benja084 (ES1) [ES1] :: Feb. 5, 2018, 1:15 a.m.

Herveus (AU1) said:

Potentia (US1) said:

Herveus (AU1) said:

Your oppenent defended like a potato and you smacked him.

There is not way to 100% calculate a battle , best you can do is get a feeling for it and be able to do good estimates.

Feeling for it?

What is this passionate love-making?

yeah get a feeling for how hard your troops are going to either fk them or how they are going to get fked , no passion just raw fking.

That moment when Herveus said that "fking" has nothing to do with passion...