Forum: empire-en

Board: [816] News from the world of Empire

Topic: [342360] Bot Banning: Intermediate results

[4855330] Turtle24 (US1) [US1] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 12:11 a.m.

Zeps (US1) said:

Turtle24 (US1) said:

Zeps (US1) said:

BTW, since I offered a complaint, I would like to offer at least a starting suggestion.   First let me explain.  I have never in my wildest dreams thought of robbing a bank.   However I am sure if a new law came out that said, if you are caught for robbing a bank, the first offence you will spend a day in jail,  the second offense you will spend 3 days in jail, third offence a week, and then if caught again you will spend the rest of your life in jail, however we will not take away from you all the money you robbed.   I am pretty sure you would see a huge upswing in robberies all over the country,  in fact, I am sure you will find that there will be many folks who become serial bank robbers,  well at least three time offenders.  Banks would suddenly be the worst place to keep your money, with folk being robbed in the lobby because the bank had been robbed so many times there was nothing left to take.    Yet this is just exactly what GGE has told to the very folks destroying their games.   You get to get caught cheating three times on any account before you get banned from the game forever.  We will not take back your ill gotten gains,  Nor your other accounts.   GGE it would be better to sell  cheat all you want subscription , kinda like the vip,  you could sell no ramification cheating for 24 hours,  renewed with rubies and offered on the wheel of fortune, great reward incentives for ruby purchases.  This way at least all your paying customers would be on a level playing field.  And you won't really have to do anything to fix the cheating problem.  You could offer best bots as awards,  maybe work up a task page that allows you to access all your multi accounts at the same time for building troops, defending and attacking.   Heck if you play your cards right, you could even Offer an alliance password account with separate privileges for various ranks.  Like Deputys can access all accounts but cannot access their rubies or kick out all the members,  (you know how messy that gets)   

ummmm.... that doesn't really make sense, and no.

Not at all implying in anyway that you folks at GK cheat, but if in fact you are playing legit, you should be one of the alliances that is pushing hardest for GGE to get their act together and seriously go after the cheaters 

your solution sucks tho. And I honestly cant tell if it was sarcasm or not so I took it seriously.

[4855341] Batten (GB1) [GB1] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 1:01 a.m.

What is your position on multi accounts Turtle enlighten us.  It is a fairly simple issue yes you support one player one account and are compliant with the terms and conditions or no - bad idea - you support multi's in which case well I'd expect you to a.  be banned from the forum and b. be banned from the game.  Time for messing about is over break the rules don't play, there is nothing to be gained by this constant messing about now just remove them or close the game and reopen it when you can actually enforce your own rules.  Pretty sure Turtle won't hide in his or her shell and will do the right thing as there is really only one option

[4855342] Batten (GB1) [GB1] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 1:02 a.m.

That was sarcasm

[4855343] Turtle24 (US1) [US1] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 1:04 a.m.

Batten (GB1) said:

What is your position on multi accounts Turtle enlighten us.  It is a fairly simple issue yes you support one player one account and are compliant with the terms and conditions or no - bad idea - you support multi's in which case well I'd expect you to a.  be banned from the forum and b. be banned from the game.  Time for messing about is over break the rules don't play, there is nothing to be gained by this constant messing about now just remove them or close the game and reopen it when you can actually enforce your own rules.  Pretty sure Turtle won't hide in his or her shell and will do the right thing as there is really only one option

My position is that multi-accounts are against the ToS and multi-accounters need to be banned according to the guidelines gge has presented us with. However, Zeps rather convoluted paragraph seemed to me like he was suggesting gge allow cheating if you paid for it or something like that - which I do not agree with.

[4855344] Turtle24 (US1) [US1] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 1:05 a.m.

Batten (GB1) said:

That was sarcasm

Wait, so I wasted 5 min of life typing a response that wasn't needed because it was sarcasm? sad.... lol

[4855348] Zeps (US1) [None] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 1:21 a.m.

Turtle24 (US1) said:

Batten (GB1) said:

That was sarcasm

Wait, so I wasted 5 min of life typing a response that wasn't needed because it was sarcasm? sad.... lol

Turtle24 (US1) said:

Batten (GB1) said:

What is your position on multi accounts Turtle enlighten us.  It is a fairly simple issue yes you support one player one account and are compliant with the terms and conditions or no - bad idea - you support multi's in which case well I'd expect you to a.  be banned from the forum and b. be banned from the game.  Time for messing about is over break the rules don't play, there is nothing to be gained by this constant messing about now just remove them or close the game and reopen it when you can actually enforce your own rules.  Pretty sure Turtle won't hide in his or her shell and will do the right thing as there is really only one option

My position is that multi-accounts are against the ToS and multi-accounters need to be banned according to the guidelines gge has presented us with. However, Zeps rather convoluted paragraph seemed to me like he was suggesting gge allow cheating if you paid for it or something like that - which I do not agree with.

sorry, yes in the second post, the second half was sarcasm, or light hearted ribbing, tongue in cheek, etc.  unfortunately we are talking GGE here, and their response to kids robbing them blind stealing candy in their candy store is to not let the ones they catch back in for several hours at a time, but letting them keep all the candy they stole,  and then selling only horrible cheap candy no body wants,  yeah the thieves are not able to get the good candy any more but neither can  anyone else, it  hurts the rest of the customer base and ultimately the store.  Soooo...   I can see why the panic with the idea, cause GGE might actually think that making money off cheating is the better and easier alternative,  probably be a meeting Monday morning to consider the cash flow ramifications to it.    Everyone knows they sure have not put any effort into stopping it.  

[4855404] Stonedigger (GB1) [None] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 10:23 a.m.

Batten, you talk a lot of sense mate, and I'm sure the silent majority agree with you.

[4855439] Philt123 (GB1) [GB1] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 12:52 p.m.

I totally agree with many of the comments here, firstly as a Max it needs to be 3 strikes and you are out.  More than that is crazy.  When u factor in Multis it just gives way way too many opportunites for cheaters to cheat.   I really think GGE are underestimating quite how many good high level acccounts are in the hands of Multi's these days.  The amount of people that have left this game over the years, People i KNOW have left the game as I still speak to them, yet their accounts are still happily playing events etc.   We ALL know loads of accounts like this.
Also why are you rolling the ban level backwards?  Are you saying its ok to cheat once every 6 months?  

And most importantly why are you not taking away the things the cheaters are getting away from them ?  Clearly there are people still out there cheating this means they think the reward is better than the risk.  This balance needs changing, IF you stripped the account that have been caught cheating of all the rewards it gained in the period it cheated, ie stripped all its coin, removed any equipmetn / gems / decos / rubies gained etc.  In the month the account was found to be cheating.  AND you banned the account, and there was a very real chance of a perminant banning.  I am sure you would soon find the game cleaned up.

Also you have to remember that a cheating account can also help the alliance it is in. to win considerable rewards. If you went as far as stripping not only the rewards the account gained, but you also stripped ALL the rewards that the alliance gained too, then I guarantee that you would quickly find the game became self policing.  and all cheaters would be very quickly booted from an alliance they were in.

Also I have no idea why you think cheating is limited to Botting.  Being able to run a top level account, 24/7 by sharing the users, being able to maximise any boosts you buy by ensuring that account runs 24/7 when legit players have to do things like sleep and eat. are just some of the ways account sharing / running multis, can be a huge advantage.

I am sure with the amount of data you guys collect you already know who is doing this. when they are doing this, and how big an impact it can have.  Why are you afraid of actioning it?

[4855441] Batten (GB1) [GB1] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 1:06 p.m.

The system for opening accounts is at best weak and has been widely exploited.  The system for closing accounts is worse.  I have written to players recently only to find someone completely different is playing the account, you might have known the original player but now have absolutely no idea who the new player is whether it's a new player, an existing player, a multi, a child consequently you just cut contact with that player and distrust the account and alliance the play in.  Those to me seem to areas you could simply have addressed if you wished to.  It isn't okay for accounts to be flying round between different owners without any GGE engagement.  If a player takes an account on they are not spending the rubies (money) or time existing players have spent to get to that point which costs GGE what they would of spent to get to that stage.  Ops I understand being exchanged to support development an account with nuclear heroes I do not.  That is blantantly unfair on all those players doing the hard yards.  Odds are players collecting top accounts in that way are barely known to the players they pass to and the leaving player by that stage doesn't care.  A player account should be locked after a players level of inactivity reaches a certain point and a player should have to communicate a desire to close an account formally to support and support should shut the account.  That would allow for transfer to be communicated and logged and again that log should be open and transparent and visible to all players.  If an account played in Scunthorpe is suddenly played from Mumbai or Riga then perhaps that would be something GGE should pick up and investigate.  Account transfer must be costing an absolute fortune in new income.  

[4855463] Zeps (US1) [None] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 2:14 p.m.

GGE does nothing cause it does not cost them anything.  Its costs their customers.  One player picks up 6 other accounts, goes after a players castle,  all the troops  and tools lost defending, all the resources to repair, all the loot taken,  that is being stolen, not won, stolen by a guy who is using 7 accounts to attack one or several castles. GGE by not enforcing their own rules, or enforcing them so weakly is actually helping cheaters rip off their customers.  And if the cheater buys a few rubies from time to time so GGE looks the other way, or does not come down to hard on them its more money in their pocket,  and if the players being attacked by the cheaters buys a few replacement tools,  well hallelujah even more money in their pocket.    From a financial standpoint, they are making money at every turn.  When you add the bots in there that just makes those robbing their customers stronger and able to get more,  more often, and faster.    

[4855467] Zeps (US1) [None] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 2:21 p.m.

I can see by all the GGE posts in this discussion they are very concerned about cheating in their game,  next month they can tell us about the (insert some random number of cheaters they caught, we have no way of knowing any better anyway) in another report, brag they took them out of commission a whopping 12 hours,  a few more for 24 hours , a few more for a week and then permanently banned a couple more.   Someone said they noticed a difference so that's good enough.  I dare say it would be hard to tell the difference, when you have a lot full of weeds, pulling a couple hands full every couple months will not make a noticeable difference.   

[4855471] dandelion1958 (GB1) [GB1] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 2:26 p.m.

@Batten (GB1) I agree the way to close accounts is poor but a simple - to me - solution to the too easy to set up new account is a plain as possible - once the e-mail has been input it needs a verification from the e-mail account ?

most banks etc. do this or is it too hard for GGS to do ? @BM ang1243

I had to close my son's account as he stopped playing and it took 2 weeks and 4/5 e-mails !!!

[4855612] Stonedigger (GB1) [None] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 8:44 p.m.

Surely a simple part-way answer to multi's is for GGE to set up a regular "phone home" situation as standard on every account.  So at random intervals, the user is required to confirm their email address, ie. "Click the link in your email to log into your account".

Lots of software does this transparently, even my phone randomly asks for my PIN rather than my thumprint.

Is it really that easy?

--SD--

[4855648] Zeps (US1) [None] :: Oct. 30, 2017, 11:18 p.m.

Doing things to catch the cheaters is not the problem here,  Getting GGE to actually do something...that's the problem, and the whole reason the game is so full of cheaters. I am at war with a group of them right now,  worst case I have ever seen,  if there is a way to cheat,  these guys not only use it but abuse it.  Nothing about their alliance or shells of sub alliances is real.  so many clues to everyone except the GGE haven't got a clue company. 

[4858117] makale (AU1) [None] :: Nov. 3, 2017, 7:01 p.m.

GGE could do a lot to remedy the current situation, but they wont. Surprise, surprise. People who spend money with them will continue to get away with cheating. GGE just do not fekkin care. So long as the money rolls in from those doing the cheating...why should they ??

[4860340] NobleDonkey (AU1) [AU1] :: Nov. 7, 2017, 1:20 p.m.

Batten (GB1) said:

The system for opening accounts is at best weak and has been widely exploited.  The system for closing accounts is worse.  I have written to players recently only to find someone completely different is playing the account, you might have known the original player but now have absolutely no idea who the new player is whether it's a new player, an existing player, a multi, a child consequently you just cut contact with that player and distrust the account and alliance the play in.  Those to me seem to areas you could simply have addressed if you wished to.  It isn't okay for accounts to be flying round between different owners without any GGE engagement.  If a player takes an account on they are not spending the rubies (money) or time existing players have spent to get to that point which costs GGE what they would of spent to get to that stage.  Ops I understand being exchanged to support development an account with nuclear heroes I do not.  That is blantantly unfair on all those players doing the hard yards.  Odds are players collecting top accounts in that way are barely known to the players they pass to and the leaving player by that stage doesn't care.  A player account should be locked after a players level of inactivity reaches a certain point and a player should have to communicate a desire to close an account formally to support and support should shut the account.  That would allow for transfer to be communicated and logged and again that log should be open and transparent and visible to all players.  If an account played in Scunthorpe is suddenly played from Mumbai or Riga then perhaps that would be something GGE should pick up and investigate.  Account transfer must be costing an absolute fortune in new income.  

I have to agree with what you're saying here. Not sure whether to believe it's the truth or not, but someone made the claim that the account they were playing through no longer belonged to the original owner, and that they and the original owner had gone to GGS and asked for them to transfer the ownership of that account. They claimed that this was not cheating and that GGS approved the whole thing.

Now, if that's the truth, then I wonder why that was not viewed as password sharing or something similar. Would have thought that would be going against the terms of service.

[4860496] Philt123 (GB1) [GB1] :: Nov. 7, 2017, 5:21 p.m.

From memory there is something in the TOS that said in certain circumstances GGS will transfer an account over, if fact I do know players that have done this and transferred over the account details new E Mail address etc. 
Why they do this i am not sure, but i know they certainly have done in the past.  How many of the accounts that are out ther playing now that have new owners have been done with GGS knowledge and how many without i am not sure.

What i do know is that if an existing player is taking over a stronger account they dont do anything to ensure the old account is deleted, so all they do is create is yet another multi even IF the account is officially transferred.  And I suspect the majority never are.

[4866626] makale (AU1) [None] :: Nov. 16, 2017, 10:17 p.m.

answer is simple......MONEY !!!!!

[4866645] NobleDonkey (AU1) [AU1] :: Nov. 17, 2017, 12:02 a.m.

makale (AU1) said:

answer is simple......MONEY !!!!!

What the world revolves around

[4866752] Philt123 (GB1) [GB1] :: Nov. 17, 2017, 8:50 a.m.

I dont understand how they believe doing this will generate them more money, most of the people i know that are given a fully developed account go on to play it pretty much ruby free, no need to spend on an account that has already got everything.  Certainly needs less money spending on it then if you were developing a new account.  

Also the only reason people multi account is so they can play at a higher level than they would be able to than playing a single account.  or in other words if you multi account you can play at a higher level for less money than you would be able to if you played a single account, so realistically by allowing multi accounting GGE are costing themselves money.

So for example say I have 4 top level accounts, and i want to play hard in nomads, I could play nomads on one account then effectivly park that account for the next 3 nomad events, so by the time it was time to play nomads on that account again I would have a nice 100% personal offer waiting for me, so i could buy the boosts half price.

If i have 1 account, and want to play every nomads hard, i would be forced to spend 2x as much on those boosts as the multi accounter, as I would be buying too frequently to gain a personal offer for every nomad event.

The truth is people multi account, and pass accounts on, to save money, and to allow people to play at a higher level than they would be able to without this.  To me this will cost GGE significant amounts of money, over time.

Thats before we even factor in the implications there is to genuine players, ie forcing genuine players from the game as they see other players breaking the rules and having nothing done to them.